Tēnā tātou, nau mai ki tēnei hotaka o Alan and Clarkie tērānei, me ngā kōrero e whai ake nei. He mihi kau atu ana tēnei kia koutou e hono mai a ipurangi ki tēnei kōrero o tērā. Welcome to Alan and Clarkie's webinar today about researching sensitive topics.
My name is Jacqui Taitua-Nawaka and joining me today we have three very expert and varied, with a varied range of experience, senior consultants across Alan and Clarkie to talk to you about their experiences, their understandings, what they've learned when it comes to researching sensitive topics. So we are really keen to get into that kōrero. Before we do that though we'd like to start our webinar today with a karakia just to acknowledge the topic that we're going to be addressing today and to think about some of the things that are going on around the mōtū as well.
So we'd like to do that. Me karakia tātou. Tēnā tātou.
What we'd like to do first is just let our panel introduce themselves. As I mentioned before they come from a range of backgrounds and disciplines and experience and we'll start with Gabrielle Jenkin on my left. Thank you Jacqui.
So I'm Gabrielle Jenkin. I'm the Manager of Research and Evaluation here at Alan and Clark. I bring to this mahi a background of 20 to 25 years in research in the tertiary sector.
So I was trained in public health and social science and the last 10 years of my research has really been based around conducting suicide research and research on mental health services. Kia ora Gabrielle. Tēnā tātou katoa.
He uri au nō Waikato-Tainui-Te Atiawa-Taranaki. Ko Manitoki tōku ingoa. My background is actually in public policy.
So I spent almost 10 years in public policy across a range of different sectors including education, health and the primary industries. I spent some time in the beehive and then I, before joining Alan and Clark, actually worked with a company that specialised in engaging Māori and making sure that Māori voices and other vulnerable communities, they were considered in policy settings in the government. So yeah my passion is making sure that our people are at the table and that their thoughts are considered as we develop policies that are ultimately going to affect them.
Kia ora Māori and finally Stuart. Kia ora katoa, my name is Stuart Beresford and I'm a senior consultant here at Alan and Clark. I started my work career at the International Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia during which I was required to interview individuals that had survived war crimes and other atrocities.
I then returned to New Zealand in the early 2000s, worked at the Ministry of Justice on a number of topics that raised sensitive issues and then came to Alan and Clark in 2015 where I've worked on a range of topics such as abortion law reform and conversion therapy amongst others where I've been leading a number of those projects and ensuring that the staff working on them are in a safe place so that they can deal with the issues that is raised by working on those sensitive topics. Kia ora katoa, well as I said a range of experience and backgrounds with our panel today. Katoa let's get into the kōrero.
So the topic of today was researching sensitive topics but what do we mean when we use that term sensitive? Gabrielle do you want to start us off? Yes so I think we can probably all agree that there's probably a few topics that we might find all as considered sensitive research, I'm talking from a research point of view, but that would be sensitive from a research point of view and that often around children. It might be child abuse, it could be child palliative care, are a couple of things that we probably all find really sensitive but I think there is really a hugely personal component to it so what's sensitive to me for example might go over the top of somebody else's head and I think your own life experiences come into play so if you've had a particular traumatic experience with something that topic might be really particularly hard for you to do research on and might affect you more adversely than doing other topics that you don't really have a lot of narrative fidelity with in your life so I think because I've supervised PhD students in conducting suicide research one of the things that I ask them when they come is why do you want to do this topic, what is it about this topic that really fascinates you, why are you interested and often I find that there's a story there, sometimes people don't tell me until a lot later but I always think it's really important to sort of you know assess people's feelings when they're talking about a particular topic that we might think would be sensitive for many people to sort of find out and canvas that kind of background so you get some sort of context of where that person is coming from. What do you mean by narrative fidelity? I hadn't heard that.
That's a psychology term so but it really relates to if you've had some personal experience and you can relate to it, you've had a very similar experience so it fits with your life narrative, it fits with your life experience. Yeah so I think sometimes when I've conducted research in the area of suicide at the time I was doing that my son was 11 or 12 and if I were reading files with a child in it about 11 or 12 that were a boy I was particularly affected by that research more than or you know more than any others so because it had that fidelity for me yeah. Ka pai thanks.
Marnie did you want to add anything to that? Yeah no I think that was great kōrero and I tōtoko all of that was about it being personal and agree with that and I think as well coming from a lens of being Māori, culturally as Māori we could define sensitive as being anything that deals with the or their mana as well and I mean you know Māori data is sensitive to us as Māori. Other communities that I've engaged with as well, all of their personal information is sensitive and especially if they don't know or trust the hands that it's been given so I think that it is a very broad spectrum and it does range obviously from suicide and stuff but it can also just range from submitting your data into the census or a survey. Anything else from you Stu for that? The only thing I would add is just to re-emphasise what Gabriel says is that sensitivity often comes from our own personal experience and so we need to be very aware of those of the experiences of not just those that we are interviewing but also those that are working as part of that team.
Yeah ka pai. Okay so we also hear the term vulnerable, vulnerable communities, vulnerable people being used a lot too so can we unpack that a bit more Gabriel? So the term sort of a vulnerable population is not a term that I like at all. I think it's quite outdated and anachronistic, it is it comes from a world where we could sort of stereotype, have stereotypes about certain groups as being they may be disempowered and of course there are vulnerable groups but it's not a principle that can be universally applied across different groups.
So for me being vulnerable is not so much being a function of belonging to a particular group but more what is the context that you're in that is making you vulnerable and I much prefer that way of framing that issue and thinking about it because then as researchers and policy people we can start to think about well how can we change the context and engage with that person because context is something that often we can change whereas belonging to a particular group isn't. So yeah I really see that the situation is one of more vulnerable situations. You know each of us will be vulnerable in some situations, none of us are immune.
When you go to the hospital and you're unwell and you have to deal with medics and surgeons and things like that you can be in a really vulnerable position when you're unwell and it just really acknowledges that people that might seem really really stoic will have vulnerable moments and there's a sort of kind of humanity to understanding it that way. Absolutely yeah and I try to talk with that sentiment as well and I think that some of the differences with that is that when we experience vulnerabilities we potentially have more tools than others to deal with those shifts and adapt to those vulnerabilities because I do ultimately also think that some of the inequities in our system are actually what create vulnerabilities for our people. The system in my opinion is sort of designed with a particular lens that benefits for the most part people who are able to engage with that system and sort of follow the rules of engagement with that system whereas we find the vulnerabilities start to occur when some groups operate outside of those systems with different systems of themselves.
So I think therefore our vulnerabilities for instance as Māori are we're vulnerable to losing our traditional practises. We're vulnerable to caring for our people through rūngua or ways that matter to us where you can see that the vulnerabilities are occurring through the loss of power and autonomy over the systems in which we have to operate. Ka pai.
The only thing I would add is that often when we're commencing projects that we identify vulnerability in terms of physical vulnerability, economic vulnerability, social vulnerability but I think that the recent events of the last few days have shown that there's actually other forms of vulnerability. Marnie's mentioned a few of them but we also have environmental vulnerability so people who are living in particular locations in New Zealand are vulnerable in that regard and I think we need to be aware of that. Ka pai.
Okay so let's with that understanding let's say we're at the point where we're wanting to engage, we're wanting to do some work, wanting to help in terms of these people and their vulnerable states at different times. What are some of the assumptions and barriers that there are when it comes to engaging and I'll go to you first Marnie on this one. Yeah I mean I've been part of plenty of research where I think that the assumptions are that these groups don't want to engage, that they're not interested in being part of research, that they're too hard to reach, that they're drifting and inconsistent and I think for the most part you know some of that might be true but it's not good enough that we stop at those assumptions and don't try to make sure that these voices are heard in our research.
But I mean in conversations that I've had with some of these vulnerable communities is that there really is a lack of trust and that research doesn't necessarily resonate with why they would want to participate. They've had consistent experience of being let down by the systems that I mentioned earlier that they have to operate in so why would they not contribute to that system and they don't know where that information is going and where that research is going to land once it leaves them. And I think if we talk again about the fact that some of these people are constantly changing and reshaping and they have less of those tools to manage those shifts that research becomes the bottom of the rung in terms of their priorities.
Yeah. Gabrielle. Yeah I think some of the assumptions are things like well paternalism really which I think is really well meaning this idea that you know that these people are vulnerable even vulnerable in this context.
So I can give an example of that from my own research which was when I went in to interview patients and staff in acute mental health facilities around the country and you know people didn't want me to go into that space. There was a lot of resistance. There was a lot of sort of gatekeeping.
This is a vulnerable population. I had to think of a way that I'm going to convince an ethics committee that I can do this research ethically with people and that I'm not just sort of being a voyeur of the subject matter. So you know to actually get into those facilities and understand how we're going to do that we got a you know a mental health service user on board.
So having someone from the group that we're working with and also a psychiatrist to represent staff interest. So having people from that group coming along what sort of allowed us to get in there and see how we could do this research ethically and just that sort of partnership helped us ensure that they felt confident in us going in there and doing this work and then we were able to convince the ethics committee that you know without including the voices of people in the situation that's what's happened to date is that their voices have been completely missing and that ethically that's a lot worse and that there were benefits to people's participation in this research and we just had to have a lot of protections around it. The last thing I think I would add is just that when we are researching in this space that we can't assume that the vulnerable communities are able to talk to us during working hours that we actually that because of their personal circumstances they might not be available you know from nine to five they might not be available you know during the week and that we have to make ourselves available at the time they are available and not at the time we would you know that works as convenient for us.
Yeah which I think is a good sort of transition to where we're kind of going next with the kōrero which is how do we overcome some of these barriers and assumptions you've talked about some meeting people where they are when when they are ready and you know how do we support them as we're engaging with them how to keep that engagement safe all of that stuff. Marnie? Yeah I and I definitely take your points June and agree with it that the importance of meeting people where they are cannot be underestimated I think that it's not only meeting them in physical space but spiritually and mentally on their level everywhere you need to meet them and ensure that they they understand and are part of the kaupapa. Another important thing I think that you can't go past is actually connecting with them with people that they already trust that you shouldn't just expect that people will engage with you and take part in research if you're not going through avenues that they've already built and established and I also one time when I was dealing with a group of vulnerable people and at the shelter and a homeless population is I had an encounter with one of their community connectors and who was a social worker and trusted by this group and she she asked me outright how important is is are the input from these people to your research and I said it's critical and she said okay well your the criticality will show through in the effort that you put into trying to engage them and so that could look like showing up time and time again that it could mean and what it did mean for me is that I was there serving kai I was in their spaces learning who they were on a level that wasn't for the research per se but it was a level that was necessary in order to to build trust and have them want to take part and I think that we can't underestimate that you know engagement is is normal for people who trust the system and for people who have been supported by the systems but for people who are not supported by the systems it's not a norm and we shouldn't expect that and so we need to be meeting them where they are giving them the tools to to make sure that they feel involved in the work programmes involved in the research that things resonate I think as Māori as well we know that we we're that sort of aspirational how are we looking after our world for tomorrow so it's about um it's it's trying to frame our engagement positively as well we obviously know that they're heavy topics and it has affected them in the now but how can we come up with solutions and make sure that it's um yeah gonna gonna achieve positive outcomes for our people yeah anything to add there Gabrielle from your perspective your experiences I think if you go back to the idea that there's situations and contexts that are vulnerable um you can say okay well they're vulnerable right now in this context but well perhaps is there another time that we could talk to these people in another context you know what are the power dynamics that is actually making it worse what would be an empowering research design it might be participatory research it might be engaging them and more what are the questions that are important to you um it might be in in the area of mental health when I was talking to people in facilities some people wanted to participate and their clinician said I'm sorry but they're too unwell to consent and they really wanted to participate in the research so I was left with a sort of ethical dilemma so we managed that by saying well you know when when you get out well how about I give you a call and so you can talk to people when they're in recovery and so you have quite a different dynamic then you know you've got a new context and a new situation and actually you know I was initially really worried about you know in research you worry about recall bias which is um that they may not remember things but actually I found them to be really clear after they had left when they were well and in recovery to actually be able to reflect upon the experience and so maybe I hadn't have needed to interview them or necessarily institute in that situation and it really removed the power dynamic of them being worried about or will you tell the staff what I'm telling you or um so you know you've changed the context it's the same person with the same you know potential vulnerabilities but you've sort of moved it um the other thing that I think is really important in research um that I've learned is terminology is really important and how you refer to people um it's if you don't know how people refer to themselves or the the labels that they like to be referred to um you need to engage in a subject matter expert or you need to engage with that population to find that out so um for example for mental health service users at various times it's been consumers, service users, patients, tangata whai ora, I mean you need to um use the language that they prefer and imagine how that might feel when you give yourself a label like that um is that you know is that a label that they will engage with and recognise um and is it mana enhancing or does it protect them because there are different things that those labels can do um so and I mean another example is when we worked in family violence research and you talk to all the stakeholders you know family violence can be framed as intimate partner violence it could be elder abuse it could be um there's a whole lot of different terminologies for it that's um violence yeah absolutely yeah yeah that's right so um and you know there's all different people if you're a victim of violence you might not you might want to call yourself a survivor you might want to call yourself a victim but it's just understanding where that person is and listening to the words that they use um and I think I mean one word that I always found quite hard to deal with was um this sort of idea of um men who engage with family violence has become one of the latest sort of terms um and I was quite affronted by that when I first heard it um I was I felt like that it was sort of like talking like it's a conversation we just engage in family violence across the table and throw it back at each other you know and I found that quite offensive um but that's just me and um but that term was actually um designed to help um to help men reconsider their views and attitudes towards family violence and so if you're trying to recruit from that group and you're trying to do some new psychological therapy or something with that group you know men who engage in family violence is probably a much kinder term um than perpetrator or um some of the other terms that people have been called so there are reasons for um for those and it's really important to try and understand them and get a sort of sense of that and so you would recommend like reaching out to um individuals or organisations that work in that space yeah so that you can either before during or during or both before I think because you know if you're doing a consent form or participant information sheet you want to know if is the term I'm using going to send off alarm bells and be upsetting to you um you don't want that situation so and to just really listen you know um how do these people talk and refer to themselves sometimes older people are considered as vulnerable and they don't like that term you know some of them will say I'm not vulnerable I'm just older I'm wise like don't call me vulnerable you know so I mean we can't just go plonking labels on people we should see how they talk about themselves I think that really highlights that importance of co-design and making sure that the people that we want to research are also the researchers and that they are given that autonomy and power to help you decide what it is that we are taking from them and I'm thinking that sometimes just in those situations you know just the idea of having to have forms filled out before you sort of engage to flip that in a way somewhere where you can actually just meet with the person and and talk to them a bit and they may just want to be called by their first name and and that's it and and not necessarily be labelled anything but that goes back to building their relationships and cool um we're gonna we're gonna move our corridor slightly now to the people who conduct the research and um and all of our consultants here have been heavily involved in that in some ways okay so the teams who go out and conduct all of this research and you've all been part of them how do you support those teams well I think that the first is that um we've got to recognise that in addition to caring for research participants that we also need to look after the well-being of our staff those that are actually carrying out that research as well as those that are supporting us in our work so there might be you know um it could be an administrator or it could be um an actual um counsellor that is you know that we've uh you know that is assisting us part of the team that's part of the team and I think it's really important that everyone feels safe everybody feels supported throughout that work throughout the project the project I have some personal tips that um you know as I said I've led you know recently led um some work around reviewing the 106,000 submissions that we got around conversion therapy and um yeah it was it took a while um and we had a team of around 15 people that was engaged in that work um and so I just had um some some tips that I created which I think would be quite useful which I'd like to just pass on give us Stu's tips the first is um you need to be aware of you know that the issue could be sensitive for some of the members of the team sometimes what's um you know easy for you is difficult for somebody else and it could be or triggering for that person and it could be because it hits a nerve it could be because it's too close to home that you know they've had personal experience in that area or it's just a really tough matter I mean Gabrielle talked about some of the statements that she read you know and because particularly those that you know that you can relate to perhaps a close family member or someone like that so no matter how important the project is I think that the work must not come at the expense of the well-being of the staff that are involved in it the second tip is assign the project carefully um really think about the staff that you've got on that are going to be working on that project talk to them ask them you know do you do they want to be involved and give them time to respond let them sleep on it you know so don't you know say to them you don't have to you know respond now I want you to go away and think about it but do you want to be involved in that project no exactly exactly um then partner and we've talked about this before but partnering with subject matter experts bring them on board so that they can help design the project that they can help you know go through you know when you talk about the language that's used so when you know let them read the um the material that the guidance material that you're providing and let them review them and come back with you um with with comments and the other one is just making sure that um you know and with regard to setting up the team is that you know right at the outset make sure that every member of the team has somebody that they can lean on some someone that they can that will support them through the project and that you know so particularly when they're struggling that they can go off and have a coffee with them and um and can talk through some of the issues that they're facing um during the project reduce the pace of the project build in time that you can um you know reflect on the on what's happening um have pauses in the project so that staff can um what is it take a break and I'm sure Gabriel will have some further thoughts that you know she's she has in this area um but and and one of the other things is that consider having an additional person attend a workshop so if something becomes um you know difficult for one of the people that's actually taking the workshop they can step out of that workshop without affecting the flow of that of that issue um incorporate some debriefs um into the um into the project where everybody has you know as a manager that you'd go around and asking people how they're feeling and how um that they are they're doing and make sure people respond truthfully and that will take time and that will you know people will have to you know feel comfortable and feel like they're in a safe space to do that but really invest in building up that um that that environment so that people do feel safe making the you know being honest about how they're feeling um encourage self-care techniques encourage people to um you know have um develop um some rituals some habits that they can um you know um that will enable them to get through the work day that will enable them to you know um uh get through a tough session and then be able to prepare themselves for the next session um and and also in this regard be conscious of sleep how sleep is a really important factor in this regard so when you're designing particularly if you're on the road you know don't have people arriving late in the morning and in the evening after a tough day and then having you know and then be required to have their first session first thing in the morning the next day you know give them an opportunity where they can um unwind a little bit and can reflect um on where things are going and the can design a project with looking at the um the well-being of our staff but sometimes we just have to accept the fact that people need you know professional support and we need to be able to encourage them to reach out and obtain that support.
Ka pai. So um tips there from Stu, you had any comments about any of those or anything else to add um Gabrielle in terms of supporting a team through this sort of mahi? Yeah um well and you know you know we've been thinking about this for a while and I've always been feeling for my um teammates and sometimes PhD candidates who are doing sensitive research um that that you know I can see things have become overwhelming for people at times and I always felt um you know at times overwhelmed myself I might read about a case that's particularly upsetting and I really need to go for a walk I need to get out in the fresh air I need to take myself remove myself from that um situation so um you know when then I started thinking about it and we were we actually sort of asked um the university at the time um could we have some professional help or advice around well what is like vicarious trauma which is um really when you start to over empathise with the particular situations and you might start having like bad dreams about it or it starts to really encroach on your thoughts and um and how you deal with that and you know what are the signs that something's actually getting to you so we started thinking about well maybe we need a sort of protocol for researcher safety in some situations even if it's just hey this is what vicarious trauma is this is what compassion fatigue is this is what it's what it looks like it happens to a lot of people um this is what you can do about it the tips that you gave Stu all those really good self-care things um we also were told oh you can go and use the um EAP employment assistance programme so that was one option but for me that was very um unrealistic because we were given maybe three sessions or six sessions in a year of EAP which is not sufficient and it shouldn't be used because you're doing sensitive work you might need that EAP for grief or loss or some other thing that's happened in your life at the time so that's when we started thinking well maybe we need to actually build in a protocol and research committees actually need to start asking these questions how are you caring for your researchers and your team when they do this work so that they're not um harmed by it so and other things that we thought about when we were working on coronial files was trying to work in pairs trying to limit our exposure to the traumatic stuff which could just be by the amount of hours per day you could reduce trying not to do it at the end of the day when you're about to go home try and do something light something easy emails at the end of the day trying not to do it on a Friday and taking it into your weekend and also to let your team members say actually you know what this is not for me um I thought I could do it but I really don't want to be here anymore and I think that's perfectly fine to have an hour for everybody you don't want people there being traumatised and I mean yeah so no that's awesome I'm interested Gabrielle in what you said about the EAP because I absolutely agree that sometimes you know while those the EAP that um are available for in the number of companies and organisations um you know you shouldn't rely solely on that when we're dealing with yeah we're talking about more professional support than that for this sort of work and on here like going back to my time at the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal I was required every two months to see a psychologist um because of the um information that um I was uh dealing with and every all my colleagues were as well it was you know we didn't always talk about work we often talked about um family life and sport and other things but it was just a way that you know we could touch base and had an opportunity to just um uh you know reflect on what the the information the sensitive themes that we were having to deal with um recently we put in a proposal here at Allen and Clark where we built in um as a um a funding line um resource for counselling um for staff and for the participants if they required it and I think that um you know when we are working on a vulnerable um project you know look discuss that with the client whether they would be you know um open to the idea that actually you could build in and have like so many hours available if we require it and I think and it's much better for you know from a client and from a firm point of view that you you do that then to have the project fall over because people become you know um overwhelmed with the information that they're um they're looking at yeah and just in case we've got some EAP people listening which is awesome we love EAP they provide great services um especially for the day-to-day um stresses that people feel you know in life in general and in work I guess for here we're talking about when you're in this sort of mahi um there's another level of support that um that team members and it needs to be anonymous and confidential as well because some people will not want to say hey I'm the one that needs help you know sometimes people want to look like they're coping and um you know you don't want to have oversight and know oh xyz people have gone and got counselling it needs to be anonymous and confidential yeah I'd also yeah I'd also really encourage as well to take ourselves out of the the mainstream uh definition of professional so I'd also encourage and love to see that building into those projects is sort of that that mātauranga Māori perspective of what what help would look like as well and so for instance that could look like allowing time to go and um seek advice uh from kaumātua or um you know I'd also encourage you know hoki atu ki tōu maunga, your awa, just go and cleanse and shift that energy and recharge and cleanse because we know that we're no good to our people if we're not good to ourselves and and uh the EAP or other professional support counselling for instance might not be um the realm in which we feel comfortable deflating and de-stressing and and I take people's points about um tapping out of projects if you want to but I I think for certain as myself as a Māori in this space is that we don't really have the luxury of tapping out so it is about trying to make sure that we are looking after ourselves and making sure that we're recharging as well and shifting energy in ways that that are conducive to how we like to um care and take care Kapai I mean and what we it feels like for me what we're saying is we're treating ourselves as a team the same as we're treating the people who we're working with people are individuals they come with different vulnerabilities at different times um and those may definitely spark up in a team who are you know focused on some of this mahi uh so let people go where they need to get the support that they need um well we've got um a couple of pātai here so I thought we could maybe ask them one here is from Beau could you give some tips on how researchers um when researching a topic or some some narrative triggers emotional reactions of an interviewee and so general tips on managing sensitive topics um when you're doing quantitative research but I guess he's saying you're in there you're with a you're with an interviewee and you can see it's what do you do in the in the moment that people are being triggered when having emotional reactions to what's happening I mean personally I'd I'd probably uh you'd see that that was starting to build and it's uncomfortable for all of us so I'd probably stop that engagement there or or allow for space and energy you'd have um hopefully in in some settings it might be a kai break or it's a it's a chance for them to go outside and get some fresh air and connect they need to do in order to also recharge ask prompt are you still happy to continue with this research it's not compulsory by any means people giving up their time and um you know contributing to research and data should never be compulsory and so it's about reassessing the situation having that flex I think as researchers we need to have that flex um I'm going to draw on a recent example of my brother he's he's recently come back into my whare um he's he's been a bit of a drifter 22 years old let down by the systems in and out of emergency housing occupations protests you name it uh so he he's now in my whare and um I want to engage with him in a way of what's happening what's our plans and he's not responsive to that he he doesn't like that approach but an hour later his mood has shifted he's got a new tool in his kete and he wants to engage so it's sort of about giving people the time to manage their time uh as they need to and keeping them safe and I think it comes back again is if if the the views of these people are important you will do what needs to be done to engage them on their level and that could mean we're postponing today we'll come back again tomorrow we'll come back again next week I think I mentioned about the consistently being let down by systems if you want them in your research you need to consistently show up for them as well cold money you know that anything else you guys would add to that I just agree with you totally the idea of taking a pause and and taking a breather allowing um the um the situation just to de-escalating the situation and I do think that um you know it's where you can't be just tied to a strict 60-minute interview you know you've got to allow you know and absolutely don't have back-to-back you know engagements where you know you have to like end the interview and run off I mean I think that you've got to you know build in time that you know accept the fact that some interviews will go longer and um and if you have to travel if you've got a plane to catch you just have to build that into your um into the the methodology and the project management that you're you know around it I think it's a really good point about the pre-planning as well if you've involved them and the reason why they're engaging why they're in the research then it could be if it wasn't as escalated enough that you need to step out then it could be referring to a question that they were happy to answer and talking on a topic that they'd agreed to be there for and those sorts of things as well so that pre-planning is yeah is really important as well feels like a very Māori way of doing things I'll just put that out there um another question from Claire Spencer who works as an engagement advisor in government do you have advice for supporting those who work closely um around those working with sensitive or explicit content but don't deal with it directly and I thought Stu you might have something there considering that it's firstly you know it's to understand that your team doesn't include those that actually sit and look at the files it would also include people who um it might be the the project coordinator who is you know arranging and and talking to the individuals you know planning that the sessions it might be people reading the things later interviews transcripts or whatever it is and and it could be people and it could be the you know and so they'll still um they might still um encounter information that is triggering for them and I think it is just to be very um what is it cognisant that it's not just your core team it's not just the researcher that could be affected it could be the person who's asked to summarise that that that that or transcribe um again drawing on um you know you know we'll not forget the time when you know we were interviewing somebody in Yugoslavia the um the interpreter um just had to leave because the um individual that we were um talking about mentioned one of your uncles who had been killed and it was that was absolutely triggering and we had to um stop the interview we came back and we interviewed the person the following day um but it was that you know we have to accept that you know and recognise that it might not just be the core group of people who are affected but there are wider people that support that. I think that raises a good point and it's not necessarily to this question but we also need to make sure that we're equipped with handling the the re-triggering of a traumatic event for our people that we're talking to so I'm sure that while obviously the researcher was triggered by that uh the interpreter sorry um so too could the person who was sharing that story and having to relive those moments so I think we also have to make sure that we are cognisant of everybody that could be re-traumatised that um has been exposed to this information and keeping people safe.
So building that support around every person who is involved, yeah. Do you want to add anything to any of that Gabrielle? Shall we go to another question? Have we got another question? Um are there any has there been any observations from Richard Cassidy any observations from the panel on research in Pasifika communities either in New Zealand and in the Pacific or both? Anyone had any work there observations? Not in the Pacific but I I've definitely engaged with Pacific um and on topics such as gambling harm um other topics say attendance in school and and so again I used what I preached and I connected with their connectors and so we held uh whono or talanoa sessions inside churches that that these people were familiar with. We went to the school, we used people that they trusted and felt safe with just to build um relationships initially and and had that support um of of these community leaders to carry out this research and so um I mean very limited experience in that because I'm mainly sort of in that Māori space but I do recognise as well and absolutely acknowledge the inequities as well that our Pasifika brothers and sisters um experience and so again meeting them where they are where they feel comfortable um kai never goes um wrong when you're when you're in these communities that's right yeah that's right and so so we really did connect in with their pastor their church pastors or their teachers.
Did you feel a good sort of responsive relationship build there? Was it you know in terms of observing how that played out and you know if you reflected on it did it go well? No yeah absolutely and reflecting with their community leaders afterwards they um of course uh appreciated that we had involved them and that we didn't come in heavy-handed thinking that we knew already what was going to be good for their communities and what would resonate and the power of that that uh leveraging off of connections that are already in these communities and yeah we definitely had some downloads about how how much they appreciated it and that we didn't just stop at and accept that maybe they're going to be too hard to reach and that we did more to push through those barriers and make sure that their voices were heard because ultimately they were very happy that they were able to contribute to the kaupapa. You can't buy. Anyone else want to add anything around that? My only experience with working with Pacifica directly was I travelled to the Solomon Islands for two weeks and to work on a project and we did exactly that while there we worked with local advisors who assisted us to you know with regard to organising meetings and other engagements we went with we travelled to the islands the outer islands and the Solomons to meet with the individuals that were affected by the project that we were working on we met with them and there in a church in order to you know in a place where they were comfortable and we had interpreters there that could assist us although the individuals tried and did do a great job conversing with us in English those what is it we did recognise that there might be words might be phrases that they might not be able to communicate effectively and so we had a translator available who could just you know ensure that the messages that they wanted to make were accurate and were accurately captured exactly and I thought it went very well and I really enjoyed the time.
Did they ask you to come back? That's usually a good signal. Yes yes but then COVID hit literally as we were I was arriving back in New Zealand they closed the border three days later. I think that that is another really good point as well about the translator and making sure that we enable our Pacific peoples or Māori if that's their only language to be able to communicate in their reo because I was part of a DHB kaupapa as well where Pacific Islanders were impacted by the breakdown of referral systems etc and in talking to some of their community leaders they were saying you know there's no point in texting these people because they don't read text you need to call them or you need to show up and then there was also instances where a a mama a Pacific mama or maybe 80 years old or something she she was complaining of having a lot of hearing and she needed a hearing aid but the nurses that were attending to her didn't speak her language and so they just assumed you know no you're actually in here because you had a fall when you hurt your hip and so then they they actually noted on her file that she was you know not not willing to engage doesn't know what she's sort of talking about doesn't know why she's here maybe a little bit dazed and confused and it wasn't until they took the time to give her a translator that she could really articulate in her reo what she needed and then a hearing aid was organised and she was chatty chatty chatty so I'd like to point where you said that you know it's about that reaching out to these communities that you know email is not necessarily what they're used to and I think when we're working in government we're all used to you know email communications and and phoning somebody but sometimes that's that's not how people engage you know want to be engaged within these communities they might not have an email address they might not have a cell phone and that it may be that when you know especially if you get cold called you know no one likes to be cold called and just you know sometimes it might be useful you know to work with a body that can reach out to the person to let them know that you know you're going to contact them and to sort of like identify the best means to do that contact.
Well look as you can see these guys can talk about this stuff for a long time but we I think we're coming to the end of of our time for today but if you have any other questions about this kaupapa or if you want to talk any more about this in terms of research in terms of engaging with communities who you may be struggling with in terms of knowing how to do it and what to do then please contact us at Ellington Park and there are a number of consultants here who'll be happy to talk to you. At this time I just want to thank our panel today Stu Beresford, Marnie Tookie and Gabriel Jenkins. I'm Jackie Nawalka and to close us off as we started with the karakia we will end with the karakia and we will wish you all and your whanau well for the rest of the day for the rest of the week and we keep those people in our thoughts as well who are particularly struggling and in hardship at this time.
